Interviewing a Nonagenarian – Shirley B.

Note:
To lighten reading – and writing – loads during this month of
doubtless numerous activities,
this is my one special post to you.
I will ‘see’ you again in the New Year.

Interviewing Shirley B.

Of late, an inspiration hit me.  I don’t have many relatives on ‘my side’ of the family and certainly not a lot of living “elders.”  Yet, I have one who is special in my mind, although we are neither that familiar nor close in vicinity.  I recently opened my ‘real’ mail box and had a lovely HANDWRITTEN card from her (quite nice handwriting I might add).  She, my cousin Shirley, was sharing a significant family story with me, but then mentioned she had turned 90 years old.  It immediately hit me that with what I do know about her, I don’t know a tiny fraction of what I would like.  We so often don’t ask the vital questions, to discover ‘tribal’ secrets or learn family history.  It got my gears turning.

My friend Bob B. had a small business videotaping and interviewing older folks to get their thoughts, their ideas, and their lives on record for immediate family members.  These recordings are wonderful gifts, generally private for the closest of kin.  Still, I thought it might be nice to hear from some non-famous nonagenarians (90 year olds) about their lives and possibly advice they would offer to others.

It might blossom into hearing from other people’s friends or relatives.  But right now, I will start with Shirley and hope you all enjoy this nonagenarian interview.  Her sharing of insights, humorous observations and feelings has been a real gift to me, and hopefully you will find it the same.

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Shirley came into this world during 1926.  For perspective, that was a time in which Calvin Coolidge was president, the television was first demonstrated and NBC was launched.  Henry Ford announced the 40 hour work-week and his cars could be driven on the newly created US Route 66.  Rudolph Valentino died, Greta Garbo made her debut, Marilyn Monroe was born and a movie ticket cost 25 cents.  Hemingway’s controversial novel The Sun also Rises was published and the world was introduced to Winnie the Pooh.

Born in May of that year when flowers are often fully blooming in upstate New York (North Troy to be exact), Shirley’s parents Gaylord (of the Chamberlains and Belden clans) and Margaret Klein probably didn’t notice them on their way to the Leonard Hospital.  You may have had a passing thought that perhaps she was born at home; but the local hospitals in the “capital district” at that time were rather cutting edge.  More surprising to me was the level of schooling Shirley achieved as a low-income woman in that era, especially when support of education for her gender was not strong or easily found.

After attending Troy HS, Shirley attended Russell Sage College and then found a better fit for herself at the State University of NY (SUNY) at Albany.  There she graduated, earning a BA in English (summa cum laude I must brag) and a MA in English.  She attended night school working her way through each level.  This education led her to a legal assistant career.  But I am getting way ahead of her story.

Before leaving the issue of studies however, I want to share her expression of gratitude.

I believe I have had a good education – great teachers from Kindergarten through the MA.   I maintained in close contact with my 3^rd grade teacher as well as my high-school English teacher until their deaths, and still maintain a friendship with an English professor from SUNY.  I have always had what I felt was a very good job at any given time – in terms not only of remuneration, but in learning.

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When I asked how she would divide up a book about her life, Shirley started with early years.

Were I to write a book about my life, I would devote a large part of it to my early childhood – which I feel was idyllic.  I was a happy kid and I treasure those memories.  Probably, I was happy because – as is the case with most young children – I was so unaware and lived in such a protective environment.  I had loving, caring, devoted parents; wonderful aunts, uncles, cousins (those older as well as younger) and great friends. I am still in close touch with a friend whom I have known since Kindergarten – how about that!

Later she mentioned to me that one sustaining lesson taught by her parents during her adolescence was that “nothing was so bad that it couldn’t be talked over at home – nothing.”  This stuck with her.  Continuing with her recollections of younger years, she elaborated on other issues.

Being naturally clumsy, sports have not figured prominently in my life.  [But] as a kid, I was an enthusiastic bike rider.  Those two wheels were “freedom” writ large.  I love to swim and still do.  [When young] I also used to be a weekend skier [downhill], although not an enthusiastic one.  I liked the easy, relaxed pace of the beginners’ slope – and, to be very truthful, it was après ski that was the best part of the day!
(Gave my ski gear to my niece years ago.)   

At about age 10, I would say that was the beginning of awareness; … that would be the end of Part I and the beginning of Part II.  Part II hasn’t been too bad either – ups and downs, naturally, like everyone else I know.  But I am still here!

Concurrent with education, Part II of Shirley’s story was work.  She got her first job as a 16-year-old during WWII.  It was part-time after school and Saturdays.  On those Saturdays she remembers bringing home “exactly $2.02 for the entire day.”  She performed clerk duties in a department store where she worked in the infants’ department; probably one of the few hopeful and uplifting places at that time of fear and war.  Later, her first full-time job was as a secretary in an auto parts store where she accepted the job without asking the salary, which was $18/week. Eventually, she became a legal assistant, the occupation she worked at from then until now.  [YES!  As I first draft this she is still working, although not full-time.]

 

I asked Shirley how she decided what she wanted to do in life and in what ways she thought that work contributed to her life; where it added, or subtracted.

Other than monetarily, which is a given, work requires discipline.  Of course; it should be a learning experience (if it isn’t, then you are in the wrong job).  I am still learning something every day!  And I hope I never think I am ever too old to learn. Not only in terms of job content but also in how to get along working so closely with diverse personalities.  

I don’t see [a job] as “subtracting” – I truly enjoy my work.  I always wanted to be a teacher when I grew up.  It was a shock (after a brief stint as a Teacher Assistant to a professor at SUNY) to find that I really didn’t like it after all.  So everything has turned out for the best.  There was no conscious decision involved in my work; it just evolved.

I had a question that didn’t fit neatly in one category or another, but did relate to learning, jobs and living in general.  I asked her which she thought would help one get the most out of life: talent, intelligence, education, or persistence.   She obviously thought carefully about it as she said,

This is a hard one, because I believe they are all important.  Certainly “talent” and “intelligence” – without them one is not likely to get very far.  The story of Florence Foster Jenkins might shoot a hole in that statement although I think she might be considered the exception to the rule.  But, generally speaking, a “round peg in a round hole”  is  preferred to a “square peg in a round hole.”  Education, that is “formal education,” is important (especially in today’s technical world), but then history books are full of people who grew up in log cabins.  Last, but certainly not least, there is “Persistence” – by all means, yes!  But one ought to be able to know when it isn’t working, and move on.  I am thinking of Skinner’s pigeons, so there is a time to move on.

[Note: if, like me, you don’t remember the Skinner pigeon reference, BF Skinner used pigeons in several studies. Shirley referred to his early work with them, which examined perseverance – and knowing when ‘trying’ wasn’t paying off.  They pecked at feeders incessantly with no results.  They didn’t know when it was time to give up and move on.  In passing, his second attempt was to develop a system of pigeon controlled guided bombs during WWII.  OOPS.]

More on Part II

Continuing on with the era Shirley would call Part II, I asked her about regrets she might have in failing to ask her parents something, and about her own life in regard to marriage and children.

As with many families in which one side seems to dominate, she recounts:

So often I regret not having pressed my father to tell me about his childhood and family.  Mother’s family I knew well – the Klein uncles and older cousins were an integral part of my childhood.  Dad’s family, however, was not local (his family was from the Lake Champlain area) so there was not much opportunity to get together; my memories of them, however, are happy ones.

About marriage she suggests a ‘test’ I greatly appreciated.  I plan to add it to my treasure trove of advice, vital to share, especially with younger folks – whether welcomed or not.

Guess I just never met “Mr. Right.”  The litmus test was whether I would be happy if we were both on the inside of the front door at the end of the evening – that just never happened.

Not surprising, based on that response, she never had children of her own.  Still she adds,

I have enjoyed my nieces (and now their kids and grandkids) from the time they were in their cribs.  We are not merely kin but “BFFs” – how lucky can one be? 

[I just have to gloat.  How many 90 year olds are comfortable with the BFF lingo?  And if you need a reminder it is “Best Friends Forever.”  Perhaps those folks who have younger relatives are just more apt to pick this up; the rest of us need to struggle to stay apprised of it all. ]

Health Habits

We covered health habits when I inquired about smoking, drinking, diet, exercise and genes.  Don’t resent her if she sounds a bit too perfect.

I never smoked —   mother, father, and sister were all chain-smokers so I have probably inhaled more than a little second-hand smoke.
I used to drink, but finally decided it was an expensive habit without any health benefits to redeem it.
As to diet – I have yet to meet a vegetable I didn’t like (especially if it is green).  I eat red meat sparingly and usually keep it at about 4 oz. per serving; fruit during the summer when the local berries are so abundant, and who doesn’t like apples!  I go light on sweets – seldom order them out.

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Genes are another matter.  The maternal side genes are not the best.  Of eight children, one died from Spanish flu,  one from diphtheria, both were very young so there is no way of guessing how they might have passed had they been older.  I don’t know what my Uncle Albert or Uncle Myron died from, but Mother and her other 3 brothers all died from cancer. On the other hand, my paternal grandmother and her younger sister, Great Aunt Anna, lived to the ripe old age of 96 and 98.  Both of these women were up and on their feet, both with things they felt they had to do, leading purposeful lives.  In each case, [they died of] a cold which morphed into pneumonia. 

As for me, I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 1999; had a lumpectomy, followed up by chemo and radiation.  I have had annual exams by the oncologist, annual mammograms and this year an ultra-sound as well.
I am not smug about my “recovery” and will not consider myself a cancer survivor until I die from something else (preferably a vast old age).  That leads me to comment that considering I have reached the 9^th decade, I don’t really think my aunts of 96 and 98 were all that “ripe” or “old”.

Philosophy, Success and Happiness

When asked about the matters in this title, Shirley had more to say than she first let on.  In response to a philosophy of life she said,

I don’t know that one could say I have a philosophy of life, but I happen to think that life is pretty neat. We’ve talked about the ups-n-downs….. My mistakes have been my own, so I can’t lay the blame elsewhere……

I am grateful for what I have, and what I have had.  So many happy memories.  Moreover, there is hardly a week that goes by that just by chance I meet a perfect stranger who smiles and comments on the nice day.  This is not to mention the things that occur not just by chance.  I think the “Little Prince” sums it up nicely – “Things that are essential are invisible to the eye.”

I can picture Shirley in her home with a cup of tea in hand looking out on her lilac bush with the chickadees swooping in and out as she contemplated more on these issues.

I haven’t thought about this – I don’t know that I “strive.”   I simply do the best I can with what I have at the time.  I don’t equate “happiness” with “strive.”  I think one either is [happy] or is not, and it all depends on what it is that makes one “happy.”  Is it material possessions / trappings or is it the “simple” life shared with family and a compatible circle of friends, creating pleasant memories?

Hmmm.   “Good” versus “Successful?”    It all depends on how one defines “good” and “success-full.”  For example:  Mother Theresa – she spent her lifetime ministering to the needs of those who had nothing.  No argument but what she led a “good” life – but was she “successful?”   She died as poor as a church mouse.  I believe not only did she lead a “good” life but a “successful” one in her mission – that of attending to the needs of others, giving comfort where she could.  So, in short, I think that “good” and “successful” are not necessarily mutually exclusive. 

When I asked her which is more advantageous to be – smart or lucky, she surprised me.  Especially true since I always lean toward the “lucky” answer.

I’ll say ‘smart’ because we need to be smart enough to recognize ‘luck’ (good or bad) when it comes our way.  Smart enough to take advantage of  ‘good’ luck (‘strike while the iron is hot’ as the saying goes); smart enough to know how to mitigate the effects of ‘bad’ luck (again an old saw, ‘if life gives you lemons, make lemonade’) should it sneak up on us.

WISHES

I asked a few questions that I think of as common fantasy wishes.  We all may contemplate them occasionally, but generally no one asks us to actually commit to our thoughts.  More difficult than it seems.  I asked Shirley the rather trite questions of what she would do if she won a $1 million lottery tomorrow, what new invention she would like to see, and what would she choose as the infamous 3 wishes.  These were her replies.

If I won $1 Million, I would toddle off immediately to the bank and make a deposit.  Then I would think long and hard about what to do with it – believe me I would be cautious and maybe even stingy. I can be a bit tight-fisted.  Coming from a low-income family, I learned early on how to handle money and I don’t spend recklessly. 

New Inventions?  I have no idea!  I would like to see any medical or other scientific discovery that would improve the quality and longevity of life – physical and mental.  Well-intentioned as that may be, however, it would have its downside – there is more than enough prophetic literature available on the subject of population control.

[The three wishes.]  #1 Good physical/mental health for me and my family; #2  a peaceful world (that’s asking a lot, I know);  #3  I’ll save that wish for an emergency.

That “emergency” clause is very cleaver.  I may put that in my repertoire.  She responded to another hopeful question in a less fantastical way when I asked “how would you like to be remembered.”

I hope I will be remembered with affection and as having ‘cared’ – because I do.

Advice

Before I share any of Shirley’s points of advice, it struck me that her answer to a question about role models was truly a reflection on how we should live as well.  She explained it this way when I asked if there was someone she so admired that they affected her or her life decisions.

No one from history, but my Great-aunt, Annabelle Ritchie (Dad’s aunt) – and wouldn’t she be surprised to know that!!!  She wasn’t wealthy, nor was she famous; she didn’t write the world’s best novel or invent a better wheel, but the world was a better place for her being in it.  I cherish her memory.

I asked one question about how one should prepare for old age, and while she misunderstood my question, I felt I should still share it – especially given her legal assistance background.

I presume [you are asking about] practical matters such as disposition of one’s estate, preparing for emergency situations, etc.  A word of caution:  this is an on-going process – a Will is never the final Will until it is the one that is probated.  In legal jargon, a Will is “ambulatory” – it goes wherever you go, and it is always subject to change as circumstances may change from time to time.  One should always consult an attorney – and, now [these days], it is not a bad idea to consult one who specializes in “Elder” law – it can be tricky.  Another word of caution:  one should have a Will and the attending papers (Power of Atty., etc.) even if one does not have a sou to his/her name.
[NOTE: to my non-French speakers, ‘sou’ is an out of circulation French coin similar to a penny.  I didn’t know that.]

Later, Shirley suggested that one question I failed to ask about was “housing” situations in later life.  She confided in me that while she is “courted a lot by retirement communities, [she doesn’t want] to live in a hotel.”  She said she also resists “adult daycare” where they plan your activities all day long.  She describes herself as “NOT anti-social” but wants enough time just to read, be outside or have her own space and thoughts.  Further she admitted that she doesn’t always like being with people her own age.  She complained there is “constant talk” about health, surgeries, or diseases and that they emphasize the body issues above the “whole world out there.”

For me, her most simplistic, but profound, advice was this:

If it is worth having, it is worth struggling for.  If not, then move on.

The Future and Growing Older

I must share upfront that I asked “how do you feel now about growing old” and Shirley asked “can we change it to how I feel about aging?”  I was abashed.  Certainly her phrasing is the preferred.  I also asked about what are the most difficult and most rewarding parts of growing ‘old-er,’ what things are now frightening and is she making plans for the future.  Here are some of her thoughts.

I like to think [life] has been a learning experience and that maybe I have been able to pass some of that learning on to others or at least that I put it to good use in some way.  In any case, considering the alternative, I am in no haste to end this chapter of my life.  

Most difficult is the passing of the people I loved and who contributed so much and in so many ways to my life – who, in fact, made my life so easy!  I can only hope that they knew that.  Most rewarding is my relationship with my nieces and their grown children – we are “friends” as well as relatives.

The things that frighten me now are things I can’t control – our Nor’easters that dump mountains of snow; our summer deluges that are sometimes accompanied by flood or tornado warnings; Donald Trump.

Do I think about future plans?  Indeed I do (I’m not dead yet!).  For example:  my job is about to expire and, for the first time since my junior year in high school – 1942, I will be unemployed.  (I have no idea why people are so anxious and look forward so fervently to retirement at 65 or thereabouts.)
First, let me state – emphatically – I am not a “home-body” – I hate housework.  (Quoting Joan Rivers, “make the beds and do the dishes, and six months later you have to do them all over again!”)  [Note from drb – Shirley is most definitely MY relative.]  I do have to have a purpose, so have been mulling the options – I really would like to do an Independent Study.  Second choice would be working with kids who need help with their reading / writing.   In the past, I have worked with adult students – think I would prefer kids this time around.  These may never come to fruition, but you never know!

One other word Shirley used ‘loud-n-clear’ regarding aging was “liberating.”  I suspect that we all wish for that feeling in several aspects of later years.  Nice to know that at least one nonagenarian is promoting that benefit.

In a subsequent email exchange, Shirley offered me more of her opinion – and humor – about aging.  She wrote:

….actually in doing this interview, it stimulated a lot more thoughts on ageing – especially how others – “others” in this case meaning those who are not “aged” –‘perceive it.’   Fortunately, I have a sense of humor, but you wouldn’t believe the comments I receive at work.  They are all well-intentioned, I know – but just as much a gaffe as if commenting on a handicap.
Age is not a handicap!   I thought it was cute when Pam, at age 5, commented on my having reached age 37.  In [wide-eyed] astonishment she said “37 !  37 !   Why I didn’t know people lived that long!”  But she was only 5; my co-workers ain’t.  They mean well.  Wonder what they will say when I celebrate my 120^th.

I thank Shirley for one last remark, which inspires me onward and upward.  And I hope I say that on behalf of many of us.

My place or my purpose in life?  I haven’t figured it out yet.
I’m only 90 years old; wait till I hit 120.

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